The British Construction Equipment Forum  

Go Back   The British Construction Equipment Forum > INDUSTRY MATTERS > Industry Chat


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   IP: 81.151.174.255
Old 17-08-2017, 11:30 PM
V8Druid's Avatar
V8Druid V8Druid is offline
Knight of the Rose Croix of H.R.D.M
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Druid central, just East of Pandy, Nr. Abergavenny, S. Wales, UK, 3rd rock from the Sun
Posts: 13,763
Unhappy Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

so now they can get their tickets from the warmth and comfort of a class room without ever getting cold or wet ...... or seeing a machine .......

and the instructors keep their hush puppies clean

Some more interesting figures in this .....

http://www.theconstructionindex.co.u...ant-simulators
__________________
If it's got tracks, wheels, t*ts, or an engine, at some point it's gonna give you trouble!!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 86.138.20.26
Old 17-08-2017, 11:37 PM
JD450A's Avatar
JD450A JD450A is offline
Knight of the East
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Not really sure
Posts: 4,799
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

fuck sake.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


" "It's not just for money alone that one spends a lifetime building up a business…. It's to preserve a way of life that one knew and loved. No, I can't see my way to selling out to the new vested interests, Mr. Jorkin. I'll have to be loyal to the old ways and die out with them if needs must" - Mr Fezziewig, 1721 - Fuck knows dickens never told me.
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 18-08-2017, 11:16 AM
EngconUK's Avatar
EngconUK EngconUK is offline
Secret Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Tewkesbury, GL20 8TD
Posts: 55
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Druid View Post
so now they can get their tickets from the warmth and comfort of a class room without ever getting cold or wet ...... or seeing a machine .......

http://www.theconstructionindex.co.u...ant-simulators
I appreciate that the CITB has been getting some pretty bad press of late, but I saw these when I was up at Bircham Newton last month and they are pretty impressive. My take on this is that simulators are a useful and cost effective tool in any training programme. A close friend of mine (ex Red Arrows, Cathay Pacific 747 pilot) has been using them all of his flying life and as a training and assessment tool their use is pretty well established within that industry.

I don't think anyone is advocating them as a replacement for good, honest stick time; but as additional means of ensuring safe, competent operators are available to the industry in the future I imagine they are going to be pretty indispensable.

All IHMO, naturally

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 81.151.174.255
Old 18-08-2017, 12:35 PM
V8Druid's Avatar
V8Druid V8Druid is offline
Knight of the Rose Croix of H.R.D.M
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Druid central, just East of Pandy, Nr. Abergavenny, S. Wales, UK, 3rd rock from the Sun
Posts: 13,763
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngconUK View Post
I appreciate that the CITB has been getting some pretty bad press of late, but I saw these when I was up at Bircham Newton last month and they are pretty impressive. My take on this is that simulators are a useful and cost effective tool in any training programme. A close friend of mine (ex Red Arrows, Cathay Pacific 747 pilot) has been using them all of his flying life and as a training and assessment tool their use is pretty well established within that industry.

I don't think anyone is advocating them as a replacement for good, honest stick time; but as additional means of ensuring safe, competent operators are available to the industry in the future I imagine they are going to be pretty indispensable.

All IHMO, naturally

Robert
Lately !! !! ....
forever you mean, and rightly so .....

such a mis(sed)-handled opportunity ....
another jobs for the boys, money making, cash cow for an elite few, to milk relentlessly and without shame, to the utter detriment of those it should be and was envisaged to be helping.

Back door legislation gone amok and without any accountability to rein it in

Wants investigating, binning, a few heads being strung up, for their greed and a fresh start, by ?????
and there in lies the problem .. "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts, absolutely"

How many / what / which other foxes could you put in charge of the hen house???? .... and not see it all go sour, yet again ?
__________________
If it's got tracks, wheels, t*ts, or an engine, at some point it's gonna give you trouble!!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by V8Druid; 18-08-2017 at 07:34 PM. Reason: typo - spelling error
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 81.151.174.255
Old 18-08-2017, 12:44 PM
V8Druid's Avatar
V8Druid V8Druid is offline
Knight of the Rose Croix of H.R.D.M
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Druid central, just East of Pandy, Nr. Abergavenny, S. Wales, UK, 3rd rock from the Sun
Posts: 13,763
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngconUK View Post
I appreciate that the CITB has been getting some pretty bad press of late, but I saw these when I was up at Bircham Newton last month and they are pretty impressive. My take on this is that simulators are a useful and cost effective tool in any training programme. A close friend of mine (ex Red Arrows, Cathay Pacific 747 pilot) has been using them all of his flying life and as a training and assessment tool their use is pretty well established within that industry.

I don't think anyone is advocating them as a replacement for good, honest stick time; but as additional means of ensuring safe, competent operators are available to the industry in the future I imagine they are going to be pretty indispensable.

All IHMO, naturally

Robert
Bit of a difference there Robert ..... don't see many EX135s dropping out the sky as a result of pilot error.
An absolute and classic example of where these highly sophisticated and very expensive machines come into their own .... doubtless they have saved countless lives.

..... but a digger/whatever FFS ??

We all have enough nouse to realise that they won't just be "additional means" ... they'll be seen as an easy way to wheel even more bodies through the cash for tickets machine ..... ker****ingching
__________________
If it's got tracks, wheels, t*ts, or an engine, at some point it's gonna give you trouble!!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 83.136.43.100
Old 18-08-2017, 12:46 PM
DH-Eng's Avatar
DH-Eng DH-Eng is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 22
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

v8druid for pm a vote for druid is a vote for sanity
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 18-08-2017, 02:45 PM
EngconUK's Avatar
EngconUK EngconUK is offline
Secret Master
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Tewkesbury, GL20 8TD
Posts: 55
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Druid View Post
Bit of a difference there Robert ..... don't see many EX135s dropping out the sky as a result of pilot error.
An absolute and classic example of where these highly sophisticated and very expensive machines come into their own .... doubtless they have saved countless lives.
That's actually my point Graham. Whilst you might not get a digger dropping out of the skies, you certainly get buckets and other attachments falling to earth, too often with fatal consequences. Manufacturers are constantly looking for ways to eliminate operator error and the safety systems that we introduce may be looked on by some as a royal PITA; but we'd quite rightly be pilloried if we didn't take these sort of steps.

Similarly, I'm not sure that you'd find many on this forum who would advocate less training. The flight simulator analogy holds water (IMHO, natch) because it allows more people to get more training. If it was ever used as a replacement for training I would agree with you, but that's not what I actually said - or meant to infer.

I'm not sticking up for CITB/CPCS. I'll leave them to defend themselves - for the record I introduced tiltrotator training through NPORS because I felt that that body was the most appropriate for what was needed, but we might be in danger of conflating two separate issues here - adverse reaction against CITB; and investment in training facilities. I'll leave others to vent their collective spleens against the former, but I'll sure as hell stick up for the latter.

All, as always, with a very big

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 86.139.112.55
Old 18-08-2017, 07:47 PM
V8Druid's Avatar
V8Druid V8Druid is offline
Knight of the Rose Croix of H.R.D.M
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Druid central, just East of Pandy, Nr. Abergavenny, S. Wales, UK, 3rd rock from the Sun
Posts: 13,763
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngconUK View Post
That's actually my point Graham. Whilst you might not get a digger dropping out of the skies, you certainly get buckets and other attachments falling to earth, too often with fatal consequences. Manufacturers are constantly looking for ways to eliminate operator error and the safety systems that we introduce may be looked on by some as a royal PITA; but we'd quite rightly be pilloried if we didn't take these sort of steps.

Similarly, I'm not sure that you'd find many on this forum who would advocate less training. The flight simulator analogy holds water (IMHO, natch) because it allows more people to get more training. If it was ever used as a replacement for training I would agree with you, but that's not what I actually said - or meant to infer.

I'm not sticking up for CITB/CPCS. I'll leave them to defend themselves - for the record I introduced tiltrotator training through NPORS because I felt that that body was the most appropriate for what was needed, but we might be in danger of conflating two separate issues here - adverse reaction against CITB; and investment in training facilities. I'll leave others to vent their collective spleens against the former, but I'll sure as hell stick up for the latter.

All, as always, with a very big

Robert
No, I know you didn't Robert ...... I did ...... regrettably it will happen though ... greed will motivate it ...

All sight of their original mission has been lost by this organisation ... it has become a cash cow, for the privileged few to get 'fat' from .... end of!!
__________________
If it's got tracks, wheels, t*ts, or an engine, at some point it's gonna give you trouble!!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 86.138.20.26
Old 18-08-2017, 08:04 PM
JD450A's Avatar
JD450A JD450A is offline
Knight of the East
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Not really sure
Posts: 4,799
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngconUK View Post
That's actually my point Graham. Whilst you might not get a digger dropping out of the skies, you certainly get buckets and other attachments falling to earth

Robert
Sorry Rob, But the flight simulator analogy holds about as much water to me as a Rusty colander....

Racing/Flight Simulators do a very good job, you are training people to fly/drive a multi million pound item of kit that is naturally unstable and ultimately there expected to crash it in the simulator a few times till they get the gist...

Planes and race cars also only go forward! There Pilots and drivers in reality only need to look forward with the only checks in the mirrors being to ensure they don't have someone overtaking or shooting at them!

A digger is a piece of equipment that requires the operator to be scanning 360' constantly.... Same IMHO with any item of construction plant. Likewise there is NOTHING that can be taught regarding attachment safety, Site Safety etc once there on a machine/simulator.... I am a big advocate of the opinion to to learn to run a machine properly you must have some form of classroom training.... then thrown onto a machine to nail that knowledge into the brain!

Teach someone with 1000 hrs of simulator training and 100hrs real world and they will be worse than someone with 10 hours classroom training and 100hrs real world! I promise you that. The simulator will teach what lever does what... it will not teach you how to operate a machine outside the permeters of Dig, Dump, Load....!

As has been said time again by those at the coal face who have any fucking idea. the machines we use are only made deadly by complacent idiots being let loose with them! And when it comes to the inevitable argument of why
Bob was killed when a bucket knocked him on the head after a twat failed to check his hitch was locked by "toeing" the bucket (A term I just made up for the procedure of uncurling the bucket on the ground to ensure it's locked) there is one MAJOR thing that no simulator training of the machine twat could of accounted for and that's the stupidity of bob and his superiors for allowing the prick to be stood under a bucket!

Likewise the Bucket changing area debarcle.... let's alleviate risk by ensuring the machinery has to track 20m to it's little fenced off zone whilst forgetting that moving plant is one of the most dangerous things on site.

Fk Sake. Again.

Take 20 students and a acre of ground, give them 10 items of plant and have the rest wondering round whilst drinking pints of Stella, and you will be training them all pretty well for the modern congested construction site....
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


" "It's not just for money alone that one spends a lifetime building up a business…. It's to preserve a way of life that one knew and loved. No, I can't see my way to selling out to the new vested interests, Mr. Jorkin. I'll have to be loyal to the old ways and die out with them if needs must" - Mr Fezziewig, 1721 - Fuck knows dickens never told me.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 5.81.238.247
Old 18-08-2017, 08:25 PM
hiluxman hiluxman is offline
Elect of Fifteen
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 616
Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

How can that simulator replicate the real feel of driving a machine? Ie it slipping sideways, that soft spot your driving over ect ect. All it will do in my eyes would give a false representation of a machines capabilites. (If it was a multi million pound flight simulator then I may say otherwise but screens on a desk and a joystick, no.) I'd like a try of a simulator just to see if my thoughts are just or not.

Your arse tells you a lot when your sat in the seat and that cannot be simulated.

Don't get me wrong it'll be good for possibly showing how to do the job ie, heres a pile of muck in a corner then move it to another corner.

There is no substitue for experience of which cannot be gained now as you can't get on anywhere without a ticket first and when you've got a ticket your chucked in to the deep end and then I say thats where the problem lies.

What it needs is someone to show someone how to drive, have them at the side of you watching while your explaining, and progress further letting them operate then to letting them make the full descision until they are ready......and yes back it up with h and s tests after your got the knowlage and reason behind them understood, not learning what the questions and answers are before hand.
But that is a cost no one would want to do, paying for an operator to show another trainee while they are having to pay 2 wages and obviously been less productive while your teaching someone.
__________________
If in doubt hit it.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 
Partner Links



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.