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  #21   IP: 86.138.20.26
Old 19-08-2017, 06:36 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Originally Posted by komatsu View Post
That's more than likely down to the fact that one is an agricultural spec one and the other a construction spec one.
And i'm going to be really blunt and controversial with the argument that if your incapable of learning an individual machines controls or are unfamiliar you shouldn't be driving it anyway

On the AC drilling note Ollie.... it's not exactly hard. Drill goes down, flush comes up. if the flush stops or the air pressure going into the hole becomes abnormal you've a problem :P
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  #22   IP: 213.205.252.167
Old 19-08-2017, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Originally Posted by JD450A View Post
And i'm going to be really blunt and controversial with the argument that if your incapable of learning an individual machines controls or are unfamiliar you shouldn't be driving it anyway

On the AC drilling note Ollie.... it's not exactly hard. Drill goes down, flush comes up. if the flush stops or the air pressure going into the hole becomes abnormal you've a problem :P
Haha...totally agree with you Rory, you've either got it or you haven't, but, for that first 5 or so minutes it does make you think.

As for the AC drilling....it's not exactly hard to drive a digger, the arm goes out.....the arm comes in....the bucket opens....it closes....its easy when you know how...and that's where the problem lies
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  #23   IP: 77.226.244.51
Old 19-08-2017, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Originally Posted by komatsu View Post
Haha...totally agree with you Rory, you've either got it or you haven't, but, for that first 5 or so minutes it does make you think.

As for the AC drilling....it's not exactly hard to drive a digger, the arm goes out.....the arm comes in....the bucket opens....it closes....its easy when you know how...and that's where the problem lies
Thats my point thoose first 5 to 10 minutes until its comited to muscle memory can be dangerous no matter how much god given skill you have
And i am perfectly capable of learning different machines but skiping between 2 identical machines with different controls (waste and construction spec ) where nothing else is different apart from the controls is tbh a recipe for disaster
Its easier say going from brand to brand as the cab is all different and helps your brain reset but like kramer source there joystick from the same company as jcb it all feels the same but the 3 roller switches do different things between the 2 brands and i do sometimes find myself doing the wrong thing as the joystick feels the same

This kind of thing should be standardised especially if the opertions sticker isnt clear
And the simulator would teach the muscle memory
Thats all anyone has that makes them seamlessly operate a machine its no 6th sense or anything it is simply how well you have comited that machine to muscle memory that makes you operations seamless and not jerky
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  #24   IP: 86.138.20.26
Old 19-08-2017, 11:59 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Thats all anyone has that makes them seamlessly operate a machine its no 6th sense or anything it is simply how well you have comited that machine to muscle memory that makes you operations seamless and not jerky
I actually disagree.

Main thing is hand eye coordination, followed closely by depth perception, muscle memories probably third. if we are solely rating the abilities to make the machine move.

A TV screen can teach Hand Eye without bother... most of the Yoof already have it, and i'd bet to a standard far higher than any generation before.... hours of PlayStation and Xbox have created that.

What it can't teach is Depth perception. Just not possible with a TV screen really and a reason why reversing cameras have marker lines on them to give distance!


However on the whole. The Crux of site safety in my opinion is a persons total awareness of the situation. If you are looking directly forward or perhaps just slightly to the left/right all day, then you will very quickly kill someone with the arse end of the machine!

Likewise I feel CITB would be far better invested in actually teaching students HOW to do the job and HOW to set it up. I doubt they actually can as I doubt there instructors in this day and age have done anything more than sat on site obeying the site manager, if that. --- Don't believe me? Well next time your on site count how many inefficient or unsafe operations are going on!
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" "It's not just for money alone that one spends a lifetime building up a business…. It's to preserve a way of life that one knew and loved. No, I can't see my way to selling out to the new vested interests, Mr. Jorkin. I'll have to be loyal to the old ways and die out with them if needs must" - Mr Fezziewig, 1721 - Fuck knows dickens never told me.
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  #25   IP: 77.226.244.51
Old 20-08-2017, 08:22 AM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Originally Posted by JD450A View Post
I actually disagree.

Main thing is hand eye coordination, followed closely by depth perception, muscle memories probably third. if we are solely rating the abilities to make the machine move.

A TV screen can teach Hand Eye without bother... most of the Yoof already have it, and i'd bet to a standard far higher than any generation before.... hours of PlayStation and Xbox have created that.

What it can't teach is Depth perception. Just not possible with a TV screen really and a reason why reversing cameras have marker lines on them to give distance!


However on the whole. The Crux of site safety in my opinion is a persons total awareness of the situation. If you are looking directly forward or perhaps just slightly to the left/right all day, then you will very quickly kill someone with the arse end of the machine!

Likewise I feel CITB would be far better invested in actually teaching students HOW to do the job and HOW to set it up. I doubt they actually can as I doubt there instructors in this day and age have done anything more than sat on site obeying the site manager, if that. --- Don't believe me? Well next time your on site count how many inefficient or unsafe operations are going on!

I didnt mean the whole operation i just meant seamlessly moving from one operation to another with no jerký ness or pause
Hand eye coordination as you say does not require teaching for every machine
And i know not everything can be taught on a simulator that is obvious but the simulator i believe can help a lot more than you give it credit for as the first stage of training forestry harvesters have been using it for years

I know some people are hopless and cant be taught and some people who refuse to be taught
I met one bloke 20 never had a job before very enthusiastic and had spent 4 years volunteering for the college farm
He told me was so good that he didnt need to look where he was going in reverse
He never used his mirrors
And when asked to grab a straw bale grabed the bottom one in the stack with a myck crab and couldnt understand why the stack fell on the loader
Fortunately i dont come across idiots very often as everyone is self employed and not invited back if there dangerous
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  #26   IP: 90.255.16.238
Old 20-08-2017, 01:33 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

The construction industry has a huge problem looming over it... a lack of young workforce entering the industry.

The CITB recognise this but they have created a rod for their own back in enforcing a 100% CSCS carded workforce (a separate debate is already ongoing about the problems with that decision) New people entering the industry cant just "have a go" on machinery anymore - this is how a lot of us learnt right?
So if you are the CITB, facing a crisis but also enforcing rules that make it impossible for new starts to gain experience what do you do....?

Make a virtual reality site..... Jesus people yes we have reached that stage - you cant harm yourself in VR....

Congratulations CITB you've done it again problem solved - or maybe not. I was always taught that it takes training and experience to become competent on a machine. The simulator will never give experience however it could be useful for the very first stages of training. As others have pointed out, the same machine can have different control setups, attachments can vary the way you use a machine, ground conditions etc all play a part but you cant teach that in a class room or a training center. I'm with you guys on the simulator being a total waste of money for gaining competence operating machinery, except....

If a simulator can be used as a tool to get young people interested in construction then it might just be worth it. Take it round schools, colleges, drum up some interest and give new starts a clear path as to how to get a career in construction. That's where I see its future lying
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  #27   IP: 86.138.20.26
Old 20-08-2017, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Originally Posted by OllieGunns View Post
If a simulator can be used as a tool to get young people interested in construction then it might just be worth it. Take it round schools, colleges, drum up some interest and give new starts a clear path as to how to get a career in construction. That's where I see its future lying
Or spend the same amount of money on a simulator creating a game that anyone with a PC/Xbox/Play Station can download.

Honestly, for those not young enough or with links to people young enough there is a game called farming simulator.... Wildly successful, costs £30 odd and has multiplayer etc.... Great way to introduce people into the industry. And could actually generate revenue whilst being low cost to those "training" via it..
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  #28   IP: 81.2.93.37
Old 20-08-2017, 03:28 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Originally Posted by JD450A View Post
Or spend the same amount of money on a simulator creating a game that anyone with a PC/Xbox/Play Station can download.

Honestly, for those not young enough or with links to people young enough there is a game called farming simulator.... Wildly successful, costs £30 odd and has multiplayer etc.... Great way to introduce people into the industry. And could actually generate revenue whilst being low cost to those "training" via it..
There's a similar one called demolition company or something similar - uses the same 3d engine IIRC.
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  #29   IP: 82.132.224.64
Old 20-08-2017, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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Originally Posted by OllieGunns View Post
New people entering the industry cant just "have a go" on machinery anymore - this is how a lot of us learnt right?
I don't use excavators etc for a living, but I learnt the basics from a friends dad I used to help at weekends telling me to jump in and have a go. Took my time and asked if I wasn't sure about something. It's not something I intend to do for a living but would happily help a friend out if asked as it's something "different" to the day job. Sadly with the cost involved to get tickets I can't see me ever doing them.
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  #30   IP: 86.138.20.26
Old 20-08-2017, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: Citb ..... Omg .... !! part II

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There's a similar one called demolition company or something similar - uses the same 3d engine IIRC.
aye it's crap. Although you can do a pretty good impression of that Yankee knocking the chimney stack over with it.

Theres construction simulator too, which has the basics. Skip lorry too... although you can only stack two skips on it and the safety kicks in and stops you going more than 5mph
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