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  #21   IP: 86.165.39.61
Old 20-02-2017, 11:01 AM
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JD450A JD450A is offline
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You've hit the nail on the head for my operation though Eddie in the fact that we avoid price work to the ninth degree. 90% of our jobs are done on a hourly rate Basis, this might mean 25hr for a 1.5t machine, 35hr for a 7.5t machine or for the likes of the 7.5t and post rammer 40hr.

Means we don't make massive amounts but nor do we run the risk of loosing. Customer gets a nice job done and I walk away without looking like dick turpin.

As me and Shaun.G discussed, Priceworks a different game and the benefits reveal themselves instantly, but for our setup it currently gives no gains.
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  #22   IP: 95.150.140.67
Old 20-02-2017, 11:12 AM
Eddiebackblade Eddiebackblade is offline
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You've hit the nail on the head for my operation though Eddie in the fact that we avoid price work to the ninth degree. 90% of our jobs are done on a hourly rate Basis, this might mean 25hr for a 1.5t machine, 35hr for a 7.5t machine or for the likes of the 7.5t and post rammer 40hr.

Means we don't make massive amounts but nor do we run the risk of loosing. Customer gets a nice job done and I walk away without looking like dick turpin.

As me and Shaun.G discussed, Priceworks a different game and the benefits reveal themselves instantly, but for our setup it currently gives no gains.
You live in a lucky part of the world, with regard to rates. You would be running at very little utilisation in many parts of the country if people were actually truthful.
Not saying you're wrong, rates should be far in excess of that, but the reality is they aren't, and some are literally out for nothing.

You do wrong to avoid small price work in my opinion, pays far more than any hire would ever do, there is no need to rob anyone, but being more efficient having won the tender is just good business.


Eddie.
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  #23   IP: 86.165.39.61
Old 20-02-2017, 11:37 AM
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You live in a lucky part of the world, with regard to rates. You would be running at very little utilisation in many parts of the country if people were actually truthful.
Not saying you're wrong, rates should be far in excess of that, but the reality is they aren't, and some are literally out for nothing.

You do wrong to avoid small price work in my opinion, pays far more than any hire would ever do, there is no need to rob anyone, but being more efficient having won the tender is just good business.


Eddie.
Quite true and to be very blunt we are more expensive than others locally... the selling point however always is the same... We are at X to earn a living and the man who's cheaper has to be making it up somehow... Is it by Charging more for transport, materials or dragging the job out? We seem to of carved a happy little nieche out this way with returning customers eager for more work without the aggravation of tendering or office based duty.. simply go look at the job and arrive a couple weeks later with the kit to do the job, depending on the customer and volume we either still make abit on materials or the customer themselves gets it in, .

I could price work but it'd see me in a office too much. Do enough of that as is.
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  #24   IP: 95.150.140.67
Old 20-02-2017, 12:11 PM
Eddiebackblade Eddiebackblade is offline
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Quite true and to be very blunt we are more expensive than others locally... the selling point however always is the same... We are at X to earn a living and the man who's cheaper has to be making it up somehow... Is it by Charging more for transport, materials or dragging the job out? We seem to of carved a happy little nieche out this way with returning customers eager for more work without the aggravation of tendering or office based duty.. simply go look at the job and arrive a couple weeks later with the kit to do the job, depending on the customer and volume we either still make abit on materials or the customer themselves gets it in, .

I could price work but it'd see me in a office too much. Do enough of that as is.
I simply took the opposite route, of doing more legwork for higher value projects that would allow the more specialist kit to make a real impact on, thus providing me with a better return than other less experienced or equipped guys could achieve.
I also pretty much ensured these are not the sort of people who can't or won't pay that I aimed to work for.

My next route will be something completely different if this Liebherr blip hasn't put things too much off course, but that's out of my hands now.


Eddie.
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  #25   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 20-02-2017, 04:31 PM
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Something you may ponder Rory?

An awful lot of guys now in all sorts of applications have took Tilty's in every form of spec from a basic 4 pipe to the whole package.
They cover a huge range of work and customers now, let alone carrier machines of all shapes and sizes.

Have any gone back to conventional? Does the mythical skip of broken over complex Tilty's exist?

If you keep simply playing the cost card you may as well move on in your mind, otherwise do something about getting to grips with one for longer than a few minutes playing about and the penny may drop, the return even in the worst case scenario, drips back steadily.
If there are non in your area presently all the better, as it'll return a little faster.


Eddie.
I don't know whether this helps move the argument on or not, but since it's from direct experience I hope you won't mind me sharing this.

A few weeks before Christmas I had an owner operator do some work for me - remodelling part of the drive, creating better falls, larger turning area and sub-base preparation for a new garage/workshop when the better half gives me more pocket money. There wasn't a small digger with a tilty nearby so I had a conventional operator do the job. Took the Monday off to get him started in terms of the plans so I was in overalls rather than Engcon branded clothing, which is what I was wearing when I was leaving to go to work on the Tuesday. Said guy eyes the logo and asks: 'So you work for Engcon - why didn't you say when I was pricing the job up?'

Cutting a long story short, he'd worked on tilties years ago (on the railways) and always fancied one for his TB280, but didn't reckon he could make it pay. Two weeks' later (@25/hr), the job's done and when we sat down to reckon up I made the point that if he had priced the project I would have gone with it and ended up happier as he would have been off site earlier, and he would have made an effectively higher hourly rate.

We hear the 'I can't get more than 25/hr argument' every day. As Eddie says, it might be a bit of a leap in the dark, but I have yet to meet an operator who has bought into the concept yearn for the old, pre-tilty, days.

Robert
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  #26   IP: 86.165.39.61
Old 20-02-2017, 05:12 PM
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Hopefully the Liebherr will continue to progress and it'll see you right.

For me the idea of aiming higher than everyone else is a nonstarter, particularly two years ago when we started.... Price a job up as a 21yr old and you simply won't get it.. If your too low it's because you don't know what your doing and the same if the quotes too high, If your in the middle you won't get the job because the other firm is far more experienced. So we settled on the basis that if we charge a reasonable rate and focus on providing a bespoke and professional service that charges fairly we should succeed and it seems to of worked.

The thing is If I could go out and put a tilty on a new machine tomorrow I would.. BUT it's difficult enough justifying a new machine, let alone another 20k investment on it. The finance would let me and we should have enough work to cover it... BUT things change overnight and I can't charge a extra 25hr on top of the 35 rate for one machine.... but another 1.5t machine would easily earn that.
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Old 20-02-2017, 05:51 PM
hiluxman hiluxman is offline
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I do lots of day rate and hourly hires and no way would any stand the additional cost on the rate. Lots of my customers know they exist but would rather have their labourer or ground worker do any digging round things or shoveling the last bits in the bucket....why because they need to keep them working everyday otherwise they go looking for work else where and it covers the need for a banksman tilly or not you can't negate that.

I've said on here before that I've a tilting ditcher but it's only been out for 1 job....may be I don't have those types of hires that require it but customers know I have it but its never requested and again never been on a job where it's had to be sent out to the job as it's needed it.

There's no denieing that tiltys are great but they have their place and doesn't fit in for all. In years to come that may change but with everything been money based then it'll be many a year.

Oh and before we get all this have you used one, the answer is yes.
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  #28   IP: 95.150.140.67
Old 20-02-2017, 06:27 PM
Eddiebackblade Eddiebackblade is offline
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I do lots of day rate and hourly hires and no way would any stand the additional cost on the rate. Lots of my customers know they exist but would rather have their labourer or ground worker do any digging round things or shoveling the last bits in the bucket....why because they need to keep them working everyday otherwise they go looking for work else where and it covers the need for a banksman tilly or not you can't negate that.

I've said on here before that I've a tilting ditcher but it's only been out for 1 job....may be I don't have those types of hires that require it but customers know I have it but its never requested and again never been on a job where it's had to be sent out to the job as it's needed it.

There's no denieing that tiltys are great but they have their place and doesn't fit in for all. In years to come that may change but with everything been money based then it'll be many a year.

Oh and before we get all this have you used one, the answer is yes.


Sometimes you have to at least lead them to water, no guarantee they will drink, but how about taking that Tilt bucket on a few hires and just happen too have it with you and utilise it a bit.
If they like they will ask again, that's when the 'it's a bit extra' comes.


Eddie.
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  #29   IP: 86.165.39.61
Old 20-02-2017, 06:28 PM
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One major thing for Engcon to ponder....
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I'm pretty sure all the tilty manufacturers here in the UK and Ireland push the S-Type hitch - we certainly do. Anything else is a compromise, and a bad one at that.
Remember last year, John's attitude being "If I was to sell you a S type hitch i'd be happy". Great attitude and I do like the bloke!

But I just don't see the hitches or buckets being pushed, There a top quality bucket and would sell! but the attitude seems just to be to push tilt rotators! If you want to establish well and truly spread the focus and get some hitches out!
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  #30   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 21-02-2017, 09:37 AM
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One major thing for Engcon to ponder....


Remember last year, John's attitude being "If I was to sell you a S type hitch i'd be happy". Great attitude and I do like the bloke!

But I just don't see the hitches or buckets being pushed, There a top quality bucket and would sell! but the attitude seems just to be to push tilt rotators! If you want to establish well and truly spread the focus and get some hitches out!
Challenge accepted

Robert
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