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  #311   IP: 178.100.236.62
Old 13-02-2018, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

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Originally Posted by pond digger View Post
No, not saying that. You’re not crediting people with enough intelligence, and you’re assuming everyone has a money tree in the garden. By all means explain all the options and benefits, but it’s their choice at the end of the day. It’s been made clear enough that some people are quite happy with a basic setup, and they shouldn’t be denigrated for it.
I don't know where you get this whole money tree thing from the full time work from nothing is set in stone and it's taken well over 15 years to get where I'm and I'm not even close to what I want to achieve. But what I can say is that it's been done (like to think it has), by making the right investments at the time despite me thinking otherwise and listening to people, who have been there before and seen the mistakes made.

A perfect example is when I was looking into getting a tilty, I was told that a PUP would be the right way to go, don't need to change anything use all the stuff I had, no dramas, sounded good to me, however, Pat from steelwrist, and Eddie, educated me, explained the reasons and showed me the big picture. that it would simply be a case of you'll end up having to swap the unit when the penny drops and you'll be out of pocket, and looking back, it was the best advice given to me, because I'd of been a bit annoyed that after investing money in a unit, I'd have to be swapping everything, when I could of done it right in the first place.
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Last edited by komatsu; 13-02-2018 at 11:05 AM.
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  #312   IP: 86.132.10.12
Old 13-02-2018, 11:08 AM
pond digger pond digger is online now
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

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Originally Posted by Eddiebackblade View Post
Triggers Broom, end of really. Three machines easy.

My original unit from the intial Wide Boy thrread has done some 8 years or so now and is still in daily front line use with Grabs and Tree Shears etc. I did enough to kill lesser attachments in the time I had it.


Eddie.
Well, thatís certainly some testament, and as youíve pointed out, it should all go into the mix when considering cost of ownership.
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  #313   IP: 86.132.10.12
Old 13-02-2018, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

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Originally Posted by komatsu View Post
I don't know where you get this whole money tree thing from the full time work from nothing is set in stone and it's taken well over 15 years to get where I'm and I'm not even close to what I want to achieve. But what I can say is that it's been done (like to think it has), by making the right investments at the time despite me thinking otherwise and listening to people, who have been there before and seen the mistakes made.

A perfect example is when I was looking into getting a tilty, I was told that a PUP would be the right way to go, don't need to change anything use all the stuff I had, no dramas, sounded good to me, however, Pat from steelwrist, and Eddie, educated me, explained the reasons and showed me the big picture. that it would simply be a case of you'll end up having to swap the unit when the penny drops and you'll be out of pocket, and looking back, it was the best advice given to me, because I'd of been a bit annoyed that after investing money in a unit, I'd have to be swapping everything, when I could of done it right in the first place.
Thatís fine Oll, whatever suits your purposes.
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  #314   IP: 85.255.232.137
Old 13-02-2018, 01:41 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Great that Shaun is happy, and as long as he is for now then that's great.

I think no one is calling him stupid for his decision ( I'm Certainly not) as I have said before, I sold one to a customer on KX71-3 using this exact same system. He wanted a rotating grab and rotating tree shear, I convinced him that a Rototilt would be better suited and not cost a whole lot more than 2 rotators etc. He agreed only to find that his KX had manual hammer spool instead of servo, there for we had to convert at extra cost or fit buttons.

His unit is a higher spec, running grabs and tree shears 90% of its time it needed aux, it also has hyd hitch.

Now Shaun did mention a friend running Tilt "or" Rotate....... now this is 25 + year tec, and you wont be finding a red one with this on it anytime soon.

As you will all know, I ran a demo day here at our place last August, and it was a great success for us... Which is obviously why Robert and his team are copying the idea Only messing Robert and having a bit of crack ... But I was genuinely taking back by the distance people travelled, and the length of time they spent with us.... it really was a great day out for some and I have no doubt you will have a massive turn out.

We had 3 machines set up, 3 ton with PropPlus fully proportional system. 9 ton with TLE 4 pipe system. 14 ton with full ICS system.
What I really was surprised by was the amount of people that dismissed the 4 pipe route once they tried the ICS system. People really got it!

Even one guy that was insistent on a 4 pipe system, adding that he didn't have a rotate line on his machine but would ad one. I told him to try the ICS and come back to me.... he did and said, your right, world of difference.

That's not taking anything away from a 4 pipe system, general ground works or shaping etc they are perfect..... they are also great with a grab or gripper too, but when you have used a control system and worked as many as all 4 functions together it really is a different ball game... and that's before you add track or wheel steering

Look its fair to say that there is an option for everyone, and a budget too. I hope Its fair to say that I am NOT your common sales man (even though i have been called it on here) But I am a business man, and a big part of my business now involves selling. But I try to advise customers of there best options, I have told people in the past that "no that's not the way to do it" when a guy calls up to say "I have a double acting foot pedal and rotate on 2 buttons"
But some of those guys have come back and ordered full ICS systems!! so i hope im doing something right!

Anyway, As always from the first day i came on this forum if i can help anyone please ask!

Aiden
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  #315   IP: 86.132.10.12
Old 13-02-2018, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

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Originally Posted by cps140 View Post
Great that Shaun is happy, and as long as he is for now then that's great.

I think no one is calling him stupid for his decision ( I'm Certainly not) as I have said before, I sold one to a customer on KX71-3 using this exact same system. He wanted a rotating grab and rotating tree shear, I convinced him that a Rototilt would be better suited and not cost a whole lot more than 2 rotators etc. He agreed only to find that his KX had manual hammer spool instead of servo, there for we had to convert at extra cost or fit buttons.

His unit is a higher spec, running grabs and tree shears 90% of its time it needed aux, it also has hyd hitch.

Now Shaun did mention a friend running Tilt "or" Rotate....... now this is 25 + year tec, and you wont be finding a red one with this on it anytime soon.

As you will all know, I ran a demo day here at our place last August, and it was a great success for us... Which is obviously why Robert and his team are copying the idea Only messing Robert and having a bit of crack ... But I was genuinely taking back by the distance people travelled, and the length of time they spent with us.... it really was a great day out for some and I have no doubt you will have a massive turn out.

We had 3 machines set up, 3 ton with PropPlus fully proportional system. 9 ton with TLE 4 pipe system. 14 ton with full ICS system.
What I really was surprised by was the amount of people that dismissed the 4 pipe route once they tried the ICS system. People really got it!

Even one guy that was insistent on a 4 pipe system, adding that he didn't have a rotate line on his machine but would ad one. I told him to try the ICS and come back to me.... he did and said, your right, world of difference.

That's not taking anything away from a 4 pipe system, general ground works or shaping etc they are perfect..... they are also great with a grab or gripper too, but when you have used a control system and worked as many as all 4 functions together it really is a different ball game... and that's before you add track or wheel steering

Look its fair to say that there is an option for everyone, and a budget too. I hope Its fair to say that I am NOT your common sales man (even though i have been called it on here) But I am a business man, and a big part of my business now involves selling. But I try to advise customers of there best options, I have told people in the past that "no that's not the way to do it" when a guy calls up to say "I have a double acting foot pedal and rotate on 2 buttons"
But some of those guys have come back and ordered full ICS systems!! so i hope im doing something right!

Anyway, As always from the first day i came on this forum if i can help anyone please ask!

Aiden
That good; options for all.

On edit: just curious about controls on canopy machines. How weather proof is each setup?

Last edited by pond digger; 13-02-2018 at 02:53 PM.
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  #316   IP: 81.141.206.167
Old 13-02-2018, 03:07 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

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I am NOT your common sales man
Bullshit, You came knocking door to door trying to sell generators and Honda engines out the back of a van a couple weeks ago. Definitely you, i'd recognise that voice all day long.
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  #317   IP: 185.69.144.70
Old 13-02-2018, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

As someone who is never likely to own or operate a tilty but finds all of this very interesting is there a dummies guide as someone else said on here
There are loads of vids on youtube showing off and alsorts of sales literature but i havent seen anything that explains how these control systems work i understand what they can do but is there a vid showing press this button this happens and so on as some of the things said on here become hard to follow
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  #318   IP: 178.100.236.62
Old 13-02-2018, 05:57 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

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Originally Posted by smiffy View Post
As someone who is never likely to own or operate a tilty but finds all of this very interesting is there a dummies guide as someone else said on here
There are loads of vids on youtube showing off and alsorts of sales literature but i havent seen anything that explains how these control systems work i understand what they can do but is there a vid showing press this button this happens and so on as some of the things said on here become hard to follow
I'd get down to the demo day and try them out in the flesh, you won't beat some hands on seat time go get the feel of things.
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  #319   IP: 81.151.174.184
Old 14-02-2018, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by smiffy View Post
As someone who is never likely to own or operate a tilty but finds all of this very interesting is there a dummies guide as someone else said on here
There are loads of vids on youtube showing off and alsorts of sales literature but i havent seen anything that explains how these control systems work i understand what they can do but is there a vid showing press this button this happens and so on as some of the things said on here become hard to follow
this is what I know .... hopefully those with more knowledge might chime in too.

At the bottom of the heap....

oldest in the pecking order .... a non proportional, 2 way service, feeding the head, controlled by buttons ... you stab at the buttons to inch the motions ..
may also have a 6x2 diverter incorporated, as well, to change from tilt/rotate, if only one service available - if two services then tilt/rotate together.
also has the possibility for aux., via another 6x2 diverter for either/or, tilt/aux



a pedal operated, proportional, 2 way service, feeding oil to the tiltrotater, which then has it's flow directed, to either the tilt rams or the rotate motor ....
changed over from one to the other, via a 6x2 diverter valve ....



a pedal operated, proportional, 2 way service, feeding oil to the tiltrotater, which then has it's flow directed to;
the tilt rams and/or the rotate motor, via Cetop solenoid op., directional valves - controlled by buttons in the sticks.

this only requires a one way prop. service, so you only use the pedal in one direction -
using it the other way pisses off the cetops, unless there is a check valve in the lines to prevent accidental activation and backward flow.
... not good !!
by using cetops one also has the opportunity to add aux ports and a hydraulic hitch too, in the same manner (sort of)
this gives you fully simultaneous control of all functions



'4 pipe set up' .... the carrier machine has the luxury of two roller controlled aux services, one per stick .... easy fit jobbie ..
one service is connected to the tilt rams, the other to the rotate motor ... plug and play - easy as ABC

can also be used to power aux on a 6x2 diverter - usually from the tilt plumbing, so it's tilt or aux, plus also has the opportunity for hyd hitch too.



then we get to the all singing, dancing DC2/SVAB/whatever everyone else calls it, digital ECU controlled unit ...
fed by the breaker circuit usually, on a one way, non proportional line.

a valve is added to the breaker circuit, in parallel, which 'bleeds' off the required oil flow on demand from the rollers, proportionally, via the electronics in the ECU
and sent to whatever motion is selected, by the rollers, again via cetops in the head, to either tilt and/or rotate and/or aux, etc.

the ECU also has additional capabilities/outputs, to run other proportional, additional valves, in the relevant circuits, to control;
tracking, blade, steering (on a duck), whatever you want, with sufficient trickery in the plumbing dept. and enough rollers in the sticks,
... AT A PRICE!! proportional electro-servo valves are NOT CHEAP


here's an example - cheapest I've seen in months at 420 quid - each - more usually 1200 quid new, in the box !!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Proportio...19.m1438.l2649





The only systems that will give you fully simultaneous control of all functions .... i.e. tilt and rotate and aux (plus hitch too) are........


the last one ... DC2/SVAB/etc. ...... and - the devil incarnate ..... pedal and buttons set up.
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  #320   IP: 213.205.242.101
Old 14-02-2018, 06:49 AM
Eddiebackblade Eddiebackblade is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Druid View Post
this is what I know .... hopefully those with more knowledge might chime in too.

At the bottom of the heap....

oldest in the pecking order .... a non proportional, 2 way service, feeding the head, controlled by buttons ... you stab at the buttons to inch the motions ..
may also have a 6x2 diverter incorporated, as well, to change from tilt/rotate, if only one service available - if two services then tilt/rotate together.
also has the possibility for aux., via another 6x2 diverter for either/or, tilt/aux



a pedal operated, proportional, 2 way service, feeding oil to the tiltrotater, which then has it's flow directed, to either the tilt rams or the rotate motor ....
changed over from one to the other, via a 6x2 diverter valve ....



a pedal operated, proportional, 2 way service, feeding oil to the tiltrotater, which then has it's flow directed to;
the tilt rams and/or the rotate motor, via Cetop solenoid op., directional valves - controlled by buttons in the sticks.

this only requires a one way prop. service, so you only use the pedal in one direction -
using it the other way pisses off the cetops, unless there is a check valve in the lines to prevent accidental activation and backward flow.
... not good !!
by using cetops one also has the opportunity to add aux ports and a hydraulic hitch too, in the same manner (sort of)
this gives you fully simultaneous control of all functions



'4 pipe set up' .... the carrier machine has the luxury of two roller controlled aux services, one per stick .... easy fit jobbie ..
one service is connected to the tilt rams, the other to the rotate motor ... plug and play - easy as ABC

can also be used to power aux on a 6x2 diverter - usually from the tilt plumbing, so it's tilt or aux, plus also has the opportunity for hyd hitch too.



then we get to the all singing, dancing DC2/SVAB/whatever everyone else calls it, digital ECU controlled unit ...
fed by the breaker circuit usually, on a one way, non proportional line.

a valve is added to the breaker circuit, in parallel, which 'bleeds' off the required oil flow on demand from the rollers, proportionally, via the electronics in the ECU
and sent to whatever motion is selected, by the rollers, again via cetops in the head, to either tilt and/or rotate and/or aux, etc.

the ECU also has additional capabilities/outputs, to run other proportional, additional valves, in the relevant circuits, to control;
tracking, blade, steering (on a duck), whatever you want, with sufficient trickery in the plumbing dept. and enough rollers in the sticks,
... AT A PRICE!! proportional electro-servo valves are NOT CHEAP


here's an example - cheapest I've seen in months at 420 quid - each - more usually 1200 quid new, in the box !!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Proportio...19.m1438.l2649





The only systems that will give you fully simultaneous control of all functions .... i.e. tilt and rotate and aux (plus hitch too) are........


the last one ... DC2/SVAB/etc. ...... and - the devil incarnate ..... pedal and buttons set up.

You missed off a six pipe system with three auxiliary circuits that will give you true control of Tilt/Rotate/Aux and if you can purchase or convert a carrier to such a setup is really as simple as it gets.

The pedal and buttons setup canít give you any form of difference in speed of each function.

Speaking with John Craig last night, he estimates around 6 to 7 years since he last sold such a setup to a customer.
He has been involved in this latest incarnation in passing I believe and his quote ďI jumped on and knew straight away why we donít sell them anymoreĒ confirmed heís not going to get overly excited about it!



Eddie.
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