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  #1   IP: 86.139.39.93
Old 05-02-2018, 02:16 AM
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V8Druid V8Druid is offline
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Wink So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

I read .. A LOT ... and IMHDO .... the first one to sell a tilty at a sensible price is going hammer the rest .... the market is set to explode
... there is now so much publicity, in social media,etc., anyone half thinking about it, is busting a gut, hoping for some sensible pricing to appear

Sales could maybe be quadrupled at lower prices and smaller profit margins with massively increased sales levels, which would more than make up for the reductions.

Who is going to have the balls to do it???

Already folks on FB, etc., are bemoaning the cost they paid for their tilty a few years ago, compared to Engcons' most recent sales pitch/deal .... £6k gets you a hitch and 3 buckets for IIRC up to an 8t m/c .... some folks're already playing hell about theirs costing 9-12 grand for the same thing, not so long ago.

What they're not factoring in, is their control systems are different .... but you need to understand the subtle differences, to make fair comparisons .... which many don't .... they simply look at the bottom line and play hell !!

Engcon are re-inventing the wheel to a degree .... it's an old skool style/type package .. no electronics just basic buttons and wiring, with 1 prop service feeding it all, most likely pedal op. (like mine) .... using the breaker/rotate service.

Gives you a perfectly acceptable / controllable / serviceable [for most ppl's requirements], unit .... virtually fool proof and spanner-fixable .... no lap top required

It get's you a tilty ... for 6 grand .. job done and having baited the hook, some folks next one might be a lot dearer ..
or the same (??) .. either way, they'm selling units and ppl are getting tilty-ed up ...
win win .... it's a very clever move IMHDO .... not everyone wants an all singing, dancing, whizz bang set up ....
but a hell of a lot of folk have now seen them and want one .. badly!!

Manufacturers are starting to fall over themselves in an attempt for sales?
The first ppl to hit the magic price, that doesn't sound too bad ... and you get a tilty, will clean up.

Engcon may just have struck on the formula, as far as the level of 'tech' is concerned, for a HELL OF A LOT OF FOLK .... not everyone will want all the bells and whistles that make for BIG price tags.

..... get that all important figure fine tuned .....

and they'll have a queue ... a ferkin big one ..... plus, I'd bet my left nut they'll still be clearing a decent profit margin.

Now £6k is tempting quite a few, but the uptake has not been huge, from what I read, considering how long it's been available.

Sticking my neck out here, but I'll risk it; I'd be prepared to speculate that the first producer, to offer this level of package at that seemingly magical figure of sub £5k, is going to result in the above prediction on sales and cornering the market.

It's a 'chewable' bite to take, for a hell of a lot of smaller operators (who really do not want all the frills and trimmings, which, although, in many ppl's eyes, is a retrograde step, is not necessarily true ....... to start!!)

Hire rates for standard machines seems to be on an ever increasing 'race to the bottom' and lots of folks seem to want to escape that trend ... understandably

There will, without doubt, be disagreement with this opinion ..... so ......


DISCUSS ..........
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  #2   IP: 81.155.105.129
Old 05-02-2018, 07:06 AM
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diggerman diggerman is online now
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Im really interested in these but having asked customers if they will pay more they say they wont.no benefit to do things faster if no money in it.that will only benefit the customer.i charged a customer fir use of my laser level which cost me £1000 ten years ago and expect he will complain about that.everything has to be paid for.if i put a tilt rotator on my ecr25 volvo id want a shorter dipper to allow ffor the extra length of the attachment and also none of my 8 buckets would fit either.would still like to have a play on one though
Nick...
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  #3   IP: 109.152.20.218
Old 05-02-2018, 08:05 AM
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Shovelhands Shovelhands is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Well.....this is going to be interesting

Tiltys & prices, not like that’s ever sparked an argument or two before......

I must admit I’m more interested in the ided, than I ever have been before, a little late to the party?....perhaps. Although I still have my reservations about them, but perhaps if I manage to attend the Big Dig Day next month, maybe it will put my mind at rest on a few things?
My last machine purchase was the 86c, and at that point, a tilty wasn’t really something I thought too much about, or knew enough about. Had I have thought ahead, and done a bit of homework, then I could have made the decision to fit an S Type hitch, which would make the next step far easier. Although I must admit, I don’t like the look of the S Type hitch, but that, again, may change.....

For me, I’m not so concerned about earning the cost back in a certain time at a certain rate ect ect. The returns are going to be hard to quantify in many respects, I may have been in that camp before, but I can see now that it’s not that simple....
Having said that, cost is still the stumbling block, it’s a big chunk of money to spend in one go, and it’s not easy to break that cost down into bite sized chunks, it’s going to cost X amount to get it on the end of the dipper and equipped with even basic tools to go out and earn a living with it, and not much you can do about it.

I’m sure I won’t be the only one who’s very surprised that a tilty on a circa 8 tonner can be had in black n yellow, for 6k! That figure immediately sparks an interest. Is it really possibly to get any kind of operational tilty and a few buckets for that sort of money?.......
Well, maybe it is?...but I’m guessing that most people enquiring about that sort of offer, will soon find out that the basic setup is not quite enough, they will require one or two extra features and all of a sudden the price has doubled?
Is that a clever marketing tool in itself though, gets you interested in the base model, and then they can sell you the delux version much easier?
You see it all the time with cars, a new car advertised for what appears to be a bargain price, but it’s a base model, the reality is that most people will want a few bells n whistles, and they pay a bit more for it, which is fine and understandable, and consequently very few of the base models get sold.

The other big issue, which has become clear over the last few years, to me anyway, it’s that there’s so many different configurations, so much choice, the mind boggles! And to even start to get quotes, you’ve got to know what you want, and do whatever research necessary.
Most of us who don’t own one, still don’t know what setup would suit our individual needs, and that is the first hurdle to overcome.....

Last edited by Shovelhands; 05-02-2018 at 08:09 AM.
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  #4   IP: 213.205.198.245
Old 05-02-2018, 10:53 AM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

a friend of mine who is a member here but never posts took a long time to decide to get a tilty, as the justification of cost was high.

I personally dont think you can ask higher rates for you or the machine, perhaps on some jobs especially if your faster and better etc.

I see it as your choice to have such a tool, the same way you may have a basic range rover or the top spec one. Its your choice.

If you want to be top of your game and can afford to do so then there you go.

This is dependent on what sector your in, general groundworks etc, no chance

something like what Eddie did with wideboy, 100% because the jobs i am sure are priced different.
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  #5   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 05-02-2018, 01:28 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Regy53 View Post
I personally dont think you can ask higher rates for you or the machine, perhaps on some jobs especially if your faster and better etc.
I would agree 100% with Ross' observation

In Scandinavia, things are slightly different. The general recognition (by Main Contractors and Developers) over there is that not having a tilty disqualifies you on the grounds that you aren't efficient enough - it's a different take on the same thing. We're a long way off that in this country, but by the same token a common thread of all the new tilty owners that I talk to is that there is an almost universal shift from day-rate pricing to project based work.

You can't expect Mrs Jones at No.42 to understand why you want to charge more than the next guy who's quoted £25/hr. Instead, the message should be: "OK - he's quoted you £1000 (based on 40 hours work) - I'll match that, but be finished earlier so you can get your life back"

Needless to say, you are finished earlier (and off to your next job....), so your effective hourly rate is significantly higher.

regards,

Robert
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  #6   IP: 31.49.50.103
Old 05-02-2018, 02:30 PM
S.A.F. S.A.F. is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

I personally wouldn't want to see prices fall in any equipment, I don't see that every tom dick or harry being able to afford a tilty for example is a good thing for the industry.
If I was a paying customer looking to have a shed site taken out for example I would want diggerman Nick in with his laser level rather than blogs plant hire with a driver who swears he has a keen eye & says my rain water is unique as it defies gravity.
We all want attachments or equipment which distance us from everyone else which makes us unique but I don't think dropping prices would do any good in the long term.
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  #7   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 05-02-2018, 11:13 AM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

I think it might be prudent to correct one point that appeared in Graham’s first post and add a little explanation. Hopefully it won’t come across as spam.

The ‘entry-level’ system (as I’ve called it) for £6k is for a direct mount EC02 with a mechanical hitch which will fit pretty much anything from 1t to just under 3t, self-installed. For an 8t digger you will need an EC209 and that’s going to be some way north of £11k for the equivalent system. For those of you coming to the Big Dig Day, we’ll have plenty of different sized diggers with different control systems so you’ll be able to assess the options (and prices) for yourselves.

A word about control systems. There’s a lot of smoke and mirrors in this area, which I’m trying to clear out; but the top range of systems that Ollie, Eddie, Shaun, Rob T, John R and others have are expensive and take a while to fit and calibrate. On smaller diggers this just disqualifies them from most people’s budgets, which is why I’ve done what I’ve done. The entry level unit above will tilt and rotate (if you have two proportional lines) or tilt or rotate if you have a single, dual acting hammer line. We’ve got something really clever to show for the Dig Day which came about from a comment that Eddie made some time back, but you’ll have to wait for that…..

It’s also fair to say that people will be attracted by the price, but then want a few more bells and whistles and so trade up. It might be that they want to use a hammer so need a twin hitch; or need an extra function for a grab, or an automatic quick hitch. All of this (and more) is available, but at a price.

This all started nearly three years ago when I did my first test drive day on the JS130 at CTA. Of the six owner-ops that tried it only one didn’t ‘get it’. Three of the others were mini digger drivers – one a grave-digger. Watching him dig a grave from an offset position with a four-foot grading bucket was an education, but he managed it (could have buried an elephant). He would have bought one there and then, but the price of the high-level control system killed it; and the fact of the matter was that he only needed tilt and rotate (which I failed to spot). What we’re trying here gets Ops onto tilties and, once that’s happened, we know that you never look back.

As you get more confident and your business grows, then you can trade-up; but we’ve all got to start somewhere.
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  #8   IP: 81.153.167.123
Old 05-02-2018, 12:58 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Thanks for that

I thought it seemed too good to be true....and it was
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  #9   IP: 86.139.39.93
Old 06-02-2018, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngconUK View Post
.... prudent to correct one point that appeared in Graham’s first post ..............The ‘entry-level’ system (as I’ve called it) for £6k is for a direct mount EC02 with a mechanical hitch which will fit pretty much anything from 1t to just under 3t, self-installed. ............... What we’re trying here gets Ops onto tilties and, once that’s happened, we know that you never look back.

As you get more confident and your business grows, then you can trade-up; but we’ve all got to start somewhere.
Hi Robert and thanks for correcting my Faux Pas on the sizing .... didn't sound right after I read it back ..... but too bloody late by then

It's good to have you 'on board' and hearing this stuff from the horses mouth, so as to speak ......

some interesting responses, so far .... there're folk who want one, don't really want to see the prices reduced, yet aren't prepared to pay the current levels ... however they would then jump at a lower pricing structure, but aren't prepared to start at a basic set up!! ????

very narrow field/limited number of replies, admittedly and I think other forms of social media would provide a very different response

sadly we're unlikely to get the level of debate here, that this would once have generated .....

P.S.
...... I'm really intrigued to see what you've 'cooked up' to run a basic buttons set up, off of a dual breaker line ..... unless it is a fully prop. service ?????
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  #10   IP: 178.109.82.8
Old 05-02-2018, 07:43 AM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Druid View Post
I read .. A LOT ... and IMHDO .... the first one to sell a tilty at a sensible price is going hammer the rest .... the market is set to explode
... there is now so much publicity, in social media,etc., anyone half thinking about it, is busting a gut, hoping for some sensible pricing to appear
Sales are already exploding Gra with all 3 manufactures, and all you'd do is de-value the product.
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