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  #321   IP: 213.205.242.101
Old 14-02-2018, 07:51 AM
Eddiebackblade Eddiebackblade is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8Druid View Post
this is what I know .... hopefully those with more knowledge might chime in too.

At the bottom of the heap....

oldest in the pecking order .... a non proportional, 2 way service, feeding the head, controlled by buttons ... you stab at the buttons to inch the motions ..
may also have a 6x2 diverter incorporated, as well, to change from tilt/rotate, if only one service available - if two services then tilt/rotate together.
also has the possibility for aux., via another 6x2 diverter for either/or, tilt/aux



a pedal operated, proportional, 2 way service, feeding oil to the tiltrotater, which then has it's flow directed, to either the tilt rams or the rotate motor ....
changed over from one to the other, via a 6x2 diverter valve ....



a pedal operated, proportional, 2 way service, feeding oil to the tiltrotater, which then has it's flow directed to;
the tilt rams and/or the rotate motor, via Cetop solenoid op., directional valves - controlled by buttons in the sticks.

this only requires a one way prop. service, so you only use the pedal in one direction -
using it the other way pisses off the cetops, unless there is a check valve in the lines to prevent accidental activation and backward flow.
... not good !!
by using cetops one also has the opportunity to add aux ports and a hydraulic hitch too, in the same manner (sort of)
this gives you fully simultaneous control of all functions



'4 pipe set up' .... the carrier machine has the luxury of two roller controlled aux services, one per stick .... easy fit jobbie ..
one service is connected to the tilt rams, the other to the rotate motor ... plug and play - easy as ABC

can also be used to power aux on a 6x2 diverter - usually from the tilt plumbing, so it's tilt or aux, plus also has the opportunity for hyd hitch too.



then we get to the all singing, dancing DC2/SVAB/whatever everyone else calls it, digital ECU controlled unit ...
fed by the breaker circuit usually, on a one way, non proportional line.

a valve is added to the breaker circuit, in parallel, which 'bleeds' off the required oil flow on demand from the rollers, proportionally, via the electronics in the ECU
and sent to whatever motion is selected, by the rollers, again via cetops in the head, to either tilt and/or rotate and/or aux, etc.

the ECU also has additional capabilities/outputs, to run other proportional, additional valves, in the relevant circuits, to control;
tracking, blade, steering (on a duck), whatever you want, with sufficient trickery in the plumbing dept. and enough rollers in the sticks,
... AT A PRICE!! proportional electro-servo valves are NOT CHEAP


here's an example - cheapest I've seen in months at 420 quid - each - more usually 1200 quid new, in the box !!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Proportio...19.m1438.l2649





The only systems that will give you fully simultaneous control of all functions .... i.e. tilt and rotate and aux (plus hitch too) are........


the last one ... DC2/SVAB/etc. ...... and - the devil incarnate ..... pedal and buttons set up.

You missed off a six pipe system with three auxiliary circuits that will give you true control of Tilt/Rotate/Aux and if you can purchase or convert a carrier to such a setup is really as simple as it gets.

The pedal and buttons setup can’t give you any form of difference in speed of each function.

Speaking with John Craig last night, he estimates around 6 to 7 years since he last sold such a pedal/button setup to a customer.
He has been involved in this latest incarnation in passing I believe and his quote “I jumped on and knew straight away why we don’t sell them anymore” confirmed he’s not going to get overly excited about it!



Eddie.
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  #322   IP: 81.151.174.184
Old 14-02-2018, 11:43 AM
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V8Druid V8Druid is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddiebackblade View Post
You missed off a six pipe system with three auxiliary circuits that will give you true control of Tilt/Rotate/Aux
and if you can purchase or convert a carrier to such a setup is really as simple as it gets.

The pedal and buttons setup can’t give you any form of difference in speed of each function.

Speaking with John Craig last night, he estimates around 6 to 7 years since he last sold such a pedal/button setup to a customer.
He has been involved in this latest incarnation in passing I believe and his quote “I jumped on and knew straight away why we don’t sell them anymore”
confirmed he’s not going to get overly excited about it!

Eddie.
You're absolutely right Eddie .. cheers .... 'twas late
and even an 8 pipe, to allow totally independent control of a Hyd QH.
... plus two more even if one had a gripper fitted

the lack of being able to vary the differential in speeds, with the pedal & buttons set up, is true also,
but I find that I can compensate for it by intermittent on/off of the function, I want to slow
... not ideal, but does work and as long as there is a.n.other motion functioning in tandem,
the on/off is no where near as aggressive, as if you were pedaling, before engaging a motion and it coming in with a bang.

Obviously, as has been argued, to the Nth degree .....
the full DC2, etc. system is the only one giving absolute and ultimate control - but at a cost - followed by the six piper.
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  #323   IP: 86.132.10.12
Old 14-02-2018, 01:57 PM
pond digger pond digger is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Try again

So, at the point where you need 8 or more pipes, I’m guessing the full computer control system is looking a lot more sensible?
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  #324   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 14-02-2018, 02:22 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by pond digger View Post
Try again

So, at the point where you need 8 or more pipes, I’m guessing the full computer control system is looking a lot more sensible?
Graham and Eddie have covered it pretty well but I put together an idiot’s guide a few months ago. At Engcon, we use a bit of jargon – something Eddie has quite rightly told me off about – but it does help to categorise things:

SS0: (Dumb Tilty, 4 or 6 or more hoses)

No valves, digger’s hydraulic circuits plugged directly into the Tilty’s rotational motor or tilt ram. Self-evidently, you need one circuit (2 hoses) per service. If your digger has two proportional circuits, you have proportional control of the tilt and rotate functions, if they are non-proportional then your control is on/off. You may have a separate hitch line (this makes it 6 hoses), in which case you can have an automatic quick hitch, otherwise you have a manual quick hitch. Possible to have an auxiliary function under the tilty, but this will require more (digger) circuits and more hoses. On smaller tilties, this gets very congested and in practical terms for mini diggers a 6 hose solution is the practical maximum.

A point to note on all Tilties: to run any service under the Tilty (Aux, gripper, hitch, etc.) you need a swivel. This costs a lot (proportionally more so at the smaller end of the scale – EC02, EC204 etc.), so if you want to save money you can opt to leave this out but it them means that you can only have a mechanical hitch. The default is that we fit a swivel but, for example, if you go for a new digger with two proportional lines and no hitch circuit then an SS0 Tilty with no swivel and a mechanical hitch can be ordered as the lowest price option. Beware – it is not cost effective to upgrade (unless, like Mr Druid, you have plenty of time to do it), and the residual will be low; Eddie (and others) will hate you , but it gives you a perfectly serviceable Tilty that tilts and rotates.

SS1: (2 hose)

Single valve to switch between tilt and rotate using a single hammer circuit (i.e. tilt or rotate). The pedal-operated hammer line (in shear mode) controls the direction and flow of the oil and therefore the tilt ram and rotational motor. No swivel, mechanical hitch. Simple electrical control to operate the relay that switches the valve over from rotate to tilt – usually a retrofittable button in one of the joysticks.

(Both of the above systems are really simple to install – usually a couple of hours).

SS15: (2 hose)

As SS1, but with a control system and extra valves to allow simultaneous use of tilt and rotate, with direction controlled by retrospectively fitted buttons (two on each joystick) and flow rate controlled by the foot pedal. Requires a single hammer circuit. No swivel, mechanical hitch. Half a day to fit in its simplest form. If being fitted to a micro with no cab, or the existing digger joysticks are unsuitable, then IP rated 3 button joysticks can be retrofitted which will take a bit longer and cost more.

SS9: (4 hose)

Digger comes with two proportional circuits (rollers on the joysticks). Digger may have a separate quick hitch circuit (must if it’s a twin hitch variant). A Tilty control system (usually operated by a retrospectively fitted joystick button) switches the tilt function to Aux 1 (usually the gripper) then to Aux 2 (grab, compactor, sweeper etc.) and back to tilt on a latching relay. The rotate is always active on the other joystick. This way you get multiple functions from two circuits – but you can only use two functions at a time.
Usually available as an Integrated Quickhitch (IQ) and Separate Quickhitch (SQ) variant. The former doesn’t require a quick hitch line on the digger as it can control the (tilty) quickhitch itself through the aforementioned latching relay. If you have the hitch line on the digger and only want a direct mounted tilty, go for SQ instead. If you have a twin hitch configuration, you will need the IQ and a separate (digger) hitch control and circuit.

SS10 (DC2/SVAB etc)

Single digger hydraulic circuit where the hydraulic flow is controlled by the tiltrotator. Pressure and Tank plumbed into the tilty, proportional and non-proportional valves on the top of the tilty divide up the flow, direction and rate to the various services. All the valves are controlled by a controller which, in turn, gets its signals from the joysticks. Older SVAB systems are analogue, DC2 is CANBUS (as, I think, the newer SVAB systems are), which means that the joystick outputs are digitised and fed down the boom cable to be decoded into analogue feeds to the tiltrotator valves. This is better for fault finding and correction and can be programmed to shut the whole system down if something is wrong. SS10 also allows other (digger) functions to be controlled from the joysticks (as Druid pointed out).

So, if your digger has a single hammer line you have a choice between the (very expensive, but very functional) SS10/DV2/SVAB system, or the cheaper and a lot less functional SS1/SS15 variants – or, as Eddie says, pay to have the extra circuit installed.

It’s a minefield…..

regards

Robert
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  #325   IP: 86.132.10.12
Old 14-02-2018, 02:51 PM
pond digger pond digger is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngconUK View Post
Graham and Eddie have covered it pretty well but I put together an idiot’s guide a few months ago. At Engcon, we use a bit of jargon – something Eddie has quite rightly told me off about – but it does help to categorise things:

SS0: (Dumb Tilty, 4 or 6 or more hoses)

No valves, digger’s hydraulic circuits plugged directly into the Tilty’s rotational motor or tilt ram. Self-evidently, you need one circuit (2 hoses) per service. If your digger has two proportional circuits, you have proportional control of the tilt and rotate functions, if they are non-proportional then your control is on/off. You may have a separate hitch line (this makes it 6 hoses), in which case you can have an automatic quick hitch, otherwise you have a manual quick hitch. Possible to have an auxiliary function under the tilty, but this will require more (digger) circuits and more hoses. On smaller tilties, this gets very congested and in practical terms for mini diggers a 6 hose solution is the practical maximum.

A point to note on all Tilties: to run any service under the Tilty (Aux, gripper, hitch, etc.) you need a swivel. This costs a lot (proportionally more so at the smaller end of the scale – EC02, EC204 etc.), so if you want to save money you can opt to leave this out but it them means that you can only have a mechanical hitch. The default is that we fit a swivel but, for example, if you go for a new digger with two proportional lines and no hitch circuit then an SS0 Tilty with no swivel and a mechanical hitch can be ordered as the lowest price option. Beware – it is not cost effective to upgrade (unless, like Mr Druid, you have plenty of time to do it), and the residual will be low; Eddie (and others) will hate you , but it gives you a perfectly serviceable Tilty that tilts and rotates.

SS1: (2 hose)

Single valve to switch between tilt and rotate using a single hammer circuit (i.e. tilt or rotate). The pedal-operated hammer line (in shear mode) controls the direction and flow of the oil and therefore the tilt ram and rotational motor. No swivel, mechanical hitch. Simple electrical control to operate the relay that switches the valve over from rotate to tilt – usually a retrofittable button in one of the joysticks.

(Both of the above systems are really simple to install – usually a couple of hours).

SS15: (2 hose)

As SS1, but with a control system and extra valves to allow simultaneous use of tilt and rotate, with direction controlled by retrospectively fitted buttons (two on each joystick) and flow rate controlled by the foot pedal. Requires a single hammer circuit. No swivel, mechanical hitch. Half a day to fit in its simplest form. If being fitted to a micro with no cab, or the existing digger joysticks are unsuitable, then IP rated 3 button joysticks can be retrofitted which will take a bit longer and cost more.

SS9: (4 hose)

Digger comes with two proportional circuits (rollers on the joysticks). Digger may have a separate quick hitch circuit (must if it’s a twin hitch variant). A Tilty control system (usually operated by a retrospectively fitted joystick button) switches the tilt function to Aux 1 (usually the gripper) then to Aux 2 (grab, compactor, sweeper etc.) and back to tilt on a latching relay. The rotate is always active on the other joystick. This way you get multiple functions from two circuits – but you can only use two functions at a time.
Usually available as an Integrated Quickhitch (IQ) and Separate Quickhitch (SQ) variant. The former doesn’t require a quick hitch line on the digger as it can control the (tilty) quickhitch itself through the aforementioned latching relay. If you have the hitch line on the digger and only want a direct mounted tilty, go for SQ instead. If you have a twin hitch configuration, you will need the IQ and a separate (digger) hitch control and circuit.

SS10 (DC2/SVAB etc)

Single digger hydraulic circuit where the hydraulic flow is controlled by the tiltrotator. Pressure and Tank plumbed into the tilty, proportional and non-proportional valves on the top of the tilty divide up the flow, direction and rate to the various services. All the valves are controlled by a controller which, in turn, gets its signals from the joysticks. Older SVAB systems are analogue, DC2 is CANBUS (as, I think, the newer SVAB systems are), which means that the joystick outputs are digitised and fed down the boom cable to be decoded into analogue feeds to the tiltrotator valves. This is better for fault finding and correction and can be programmed to shut the whole system down if something is wrong. SS10 also allows other (digger) functions to be controlled from the joysticks (as Druid pointed out).

So, if your digger has a single hammer line you have a choice between the (very expensive, but very functional) SS10/DV2/SVAB system, or the cheaper and a lot less functional SS1/SS15 variants – or, as Eddie says, pay to have the extra circuit installed.

It’s a minefield…..

regards

Robert
That’s good info thanks. Can you tell me if the multi function joysticks as used with the SVAB, DC2 etc would survive on a excavator with canopy, or are they not at all weather proof, and strictly limited to full cab machines?
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  #326   IP: 81.151.174.184
Old 14-02-2018, 03:32 PM
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V8Druid V8Druid is offline
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by pond digger View Post
Try again

So, at the point where you need 8 or more pipes, I’m guessing the full computer control system is looking a lot more sensible?
subject to the width of yer dipper LOL
Rubber is a lot cheaper than 'lectronics and prop. cetops though ...... if you have the room and an unending supply of secondary proportional services at your disposal

but realistically .. buttons and a pedal ... any day, ('less you get 6 numbers or a rich relative pops off ) will get you a very serviceable unit.

now that'll cause a stir !!!!!!
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  #327   IP: 213.78.124.22
Old 14-02-2018, 03:54 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by pond digger View Post
That’s good info thanks. Can you tell me if the multi function joysticks as used with the SVAB, DC2 etc would survive on a excavator with canopy, or are they not at all weather proof, and strictly limited to full cab machines?
SVAB uses L8s and we use MIG2 with our DC2 control. The MIG2s are not suitable for open diggers and I believe the L8s aren't either (the rating IP40 comes to mind). We have IP65 Joysticks, but these are button-only.

HTH

regards

Robert
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  #328   IP: 81.151.174.184
Old 14-02-2018, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by pond digger View Post
That’s good info thanks. Can you tell me if the multi function joysticks as used with the SVAB, DC2 etc would survive on a excavator with canopy, or are they not at all weather proof, and strictly limited to full cab machines?
Gra's (GrahamS) pedal and buttons set ups are on open top walkers I believe Chris
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  #329   IP: 81.141.206.167
Old 14-02-2018, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

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Originally Posted by V8Druid View Post
Gra's (GrahamS) pedal and buttons set ups are on open top walkers I believe Chris
Grah's Menzi's are Cabbed, think only his Euromach is Canopy.

One of the tilty equipped machines I've driven
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  #330   IP: 81.151.174.184
Old 14-02-2018, 04:04 PM
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Default Re: So - an opinion - tiltys and prices !

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngconUK View Post
SVAB uses L8s and we use MIG2 with our DC2 control.
The MIG2s are not suitable for open diggers and I believe the L8s aren't either (the rating IP40 comes to mind).
We have IP65 Joysticks, but these are button-only.

HTH

regards

Robert
L8 .....





MIG 2



can't find any examples of Robert's IP65 push button sticks ............. yet

What's HTH ??? Please Robert
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